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Join Date: 3/15/2008
10/30/2012 11:04:42 AM Weapons defenses
So I have been doing jeet kune do for many years and have several years of others trial arts experience. Most of that has been one person vs another and no weapon. I am not saying there has been none, but 99% has been unarmed vs unarmed. That's thousands of hours mostly on hand to hand stuff. Some of it real good, some really not that great.

So when I thought about the reality of most combat on the street, there is a weapon or multiple attackers. So I started looking for some training, not techniques, but reality based training for those situations. So far, every night at this new krav maga class has been a crossfit workout, then when exhausted and in pain, we work on drills against weapons like m-4, knife, club and handgun. Then the techniques are drilled on multiple simultaneous weapon armed attackers. I have to say that is a refreshing change from self defense techniques drilled briefly then getting taught another without multiple attackers.

I am not stopping my weekly jkd class, but I had to add several workouts a week to get in shape so why not something proven like crossfit and Israeli combatives? I am also a fan of the Keysi fighting method and am enrolled In their online university. Their focus on multiple attackers, drills, instinctive responses, elbows and forearms, head protection, shadow figjting and visualization is right on for what I want.
If I had my choice, I would be training sayoc kalii with Harley Elmore and his warriors way martial arts in Texas, but can't seem to get down there. He is the best. What is everyone else doing?

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Join Date: 5/27/2012
11/1/2012 12:03:50 PM 
I am glad that you posted on this subject. I think this is a very interesting conversation point. There will always be arguments about which style seems better. I am not going to get into that but I do think that an argument about content is important.
I agree that weapons "defense" (i hate that word) is critical, as is multiple opponent skills. Awareness is also paramount.

One thing I think that many lack in is training on conflict levels. I don't usually find people training to handle and prepare for the multitude of scenarios that may not amount to the big bad guy with the weapon coming at you. What about the guy who is mad at you for smashing his car with yours? He isn't trying to hit you but he is getting aggressive. Training often dictates actions. If the actions we are trained to take conflict with our inner ethics (due to the situation not being the big bad guy coming at us) then we freeze up. Our actions then end up lacking speed and decisiveness. Along that same line do you react the same way to one guy who comes at you empty handed to the three guys with pipes in their hands? Just some things to consider. If you are doing this then you are way ahead of the curve.
Keep up the good work.

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Join Date: 3/15/2008
11/4/2012 10:57:23 AM 
I see in both of my classes a tendancy to stagnate. both courses currently are best it seems when new blood is added, as in new participnts, but also whenthe oder guys step outside ther usual training and hit another program. invariably it get the discussion started on how their stuff is different and whyon prefers another. most recently thathas been obviously for me weapons
when we start asking questions, kinda doing the what if-scout mind games with ourselves and then bring them to class, we get some good stuff adn it is alot more fun. it has to be founded on some good basics, but in the presence of a good instructor it can be great.
at its highest level, its retsev in krav amga and randori it aikido taken to the street, or kajukenbo bullring style fighting that makes the most sense and it is great. then trow in some knives, pipes etc and then debrief it. when I bring what-if's to the tableas a more advanced student its not the same as a what if that a child in a training program brings and it is a great learning experience.
besides just weapons, now i need fitness. backpain and stiffness prevent me from training fully and with the vigor i want,but being unable to move how you want do to fitness is aweful. my body knows the techique, but the ability to do it with intensity, force and safety due to my weight and age have left me at suboptimal fighting fitness.
being a warrior requires so much more than technique. technique is only a small part of readiness. one must be athletic and ready to act physically. the warrior must also bewilling to act. he needs the mindset of a predator and a willingness to use what he knows. last, the real warrior needs experience. scenario raining and visualization, time spent in the street, experience with conflict are something we must endeavor to provide. most of us would benefit from stress innoculation, screaming, slapping, pain tolerence training, full sparing and techique use in full gear with full contact, allowing eystrikes, groin strikes, joint locks etc. canyou imaging the quality of training partner and instruction you would need and ultimately cultivate? how many of us could handle the full on training of verbalconflict, full contact, inprovised weapons and doing it with intensity and safety?
a few resources:

warriors way texas with harley elmore for sayoc kali and some of the best warrior mental training around. his weapons skills have no better. its agressive and predatory. I always want more.Harley too the urban E&E with me and he is one of us. taught the knife section and I was hooked.

keysi fighting method for in close no nonsense use of elbows, hammer fists, and good in close defense inside the trapping range

I have to mention gary dills self defense systems JKD, its been my home for 8 years and has some great jkd and some excellent instruction not only in that, but aikijitsu, weapons and defenses.

Kajukenbo is a great art, with a real focus on street fighting, I love some of their drills

tony blauer's spear system is awesome. I have followed him for many years and recently hadmy first class. just awesometo bridge the gap from your flinch to your system of fighting.

Krav maga. hard to imaging a more simple and direct system with a full range of fighting including weapons defense, palm strikes, multiple attackers etc. it would compliment most anyones previous knowlege.

last, surviving deadly contact. what and eye opener. thats an awesome class.

there are more, but running out of time, keep this thread up, cause i am in need of thoughts and ideas to fix some serious holes in my game.

now I am off for a kettlebell workout.oh and check out cross-fit, my prescription for overall health :)


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Join Date: 5/27/2012
11/10/2012 6:14:26 PM 
I like this topic, but I worry these kinds of conversations often get too focused on styles. I agree that some of the more realistic training systems help with rapid skill building of specific moves and using them in many situations and ways, however I don't want to down play many systems out there that may have a different approach to learning environments and teaching methods (as long as they are centered in realistic combat and not competition and sport). New, exciting looking styles pop up quite often. I would caution anyone about constantly jumping ship from style to style. Climb the mountain... and then when you are at the top look around and see what is higher that you would like to climb. Find the one, or ones that you like and stick with them. After you've climbed that mountain you will be better able to know what to look for next.

Studying a single style, or several styles, in depth will always be more beneficial than studying a bit of many styles. The few you commit to will give you lots of tools. It is important to fill your tool box with lots of different tools. Sometimes a wrench is better than a hammer for the job you are working on. Similarly, some techniques and weapons are more usefull/appropriate than others to effectively deal with a specific situation than others.

Fluency of techniques and strategy is like fluency of a language. As you gain and develop command over more words (like techniques and strategies) you then are more comfortable with communication in general (combat). You are then able to use a more setting specific form of communication that is most appropriate and most benificial to all. Fluency helps develop fluidity. Being too rigid or limited to one way of responding will always slow you down and make you less able to overcome your opponents/enemies. Gaining the vocabulary isn't enough. The trick is training enough times and in an effective enough manner for these skills to become subconscious. These need to be accessible to you immediately.

I hope this isn't too off subject from what you have been speaking about. I am not writing just to you as a response, but I write in general for everyone to think about.

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Join Date: 3/15/2008
11/11/2012 10:35:47 AM 
trackerface, the resposnse was fine. I agree. i have been in so many styles and my personal program has stiffeled at my current school, so I have moved into other areas. these have actually refreshed my standard class a bit and have helped to rejuvenate some things for me.
I agree with focusing on one system for a long period of time. most responses that we do in a combat situation need to be automatic and frquently drilled. aikido taught me many things over several years, but it is a perishable skill.
correct repetition of correct responses under stress in a realistic scenario over time is the best core training. kata and formal rondori have its place, as does oint sparing, one steps and the like. but to really be applicable we neeed more scenario based training, training with consequences and stress. i am likeing stun gus, shock knives, flogging and multiple attacker drills more and more. not every class, but most. also spending more time really talking during a scenario, distracting each other, trying to fight while holding something you need to protect. all these are drills and skills we need to add to our basics.
lord knows I have seen some high level martial artists in my day, and those high level guys are good and competent. I also find most have climbed that summit and gone looking at other styles. usually that has enriched them.
one more thing I like to add as part of my training, which is missing more and more. I like solo training and meditation. the psychiarist part of me loves the meditation and most of mine is now outside and involves nature and sense meditation, but envisioning scenarios and skill and playing them through in your head is a huge part as well of learning, especially when the brain is in the meditative(alpha) state. solo training is shadow boxing. it requires so many things, like understanding the attacker, what heis doing, his movements and his responses to your movements, feeling and manipulating in your mind a particular move. you can perfect your timing and distance and do it any time. to the brain, visualization is real and has shown many benefits, just like meditation.
i enjoy these conversations as well trackerface. good stuff.

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