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merlinus (M. Krul)
Join Date: 3/13/2008
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12/29/2009 1:02:57 PM White Tailed Deer Hunting
Here in Mi we are winding up the season. I added this topic to see if we can get more input from the hunters out there. Not just the survivalists and trackers.
Deer are starting to yard up here in MI and some reports are advising that some Bucks are already shedding their antlers (kinda odd casue its early) But that may be due to poor nutrition levels of hard rutting bucks.
Time to change tactics this time of year, unless there is a few lone does going into a second heat. Bucks will start to hang out together again and the main concern for deer is going to be food and rest. The colder weather will get them to move a little more during the day.
Lets here some input and discussions from the hunters out there.
Good Luck - Shoot Straight - and Stay Warm
M Krul
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SnakeTracker
Join Date: 3/30/2008
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12/30/2009 2:01:20 AM
Not sure what you're asking. Expound a bit. The answer is so regionally specific based on weather, topography, food supply, cover, etc. Kind of hard to weigh in.
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merlinus (M. Krul)
Join Date: 3/13/2008
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12/30/2009 10:49:04 AM
See this is my point. All the trackers out there want to be specific and scientific. All the survivalist want to talk about gear and getting ready for the big bang. Us smelly old hunters just want to sit around the camp fire and BS and tell hunting stories. I can go to a book store and get well informed as to what all the experts and professionals think. I am looking for the real deal stories.
As an example ... last night I went out a little later than I wanted to, the temp was 26 degrees and dropped to 22 in about an hour. I was sitting in a stand over looking a recently harvested corn field. I am in a 10 acre parcell off hard woods that hold a bedding area opposite my location. I thought this would be an ideal spot to get a deer, but not a think was moving last night.
... see stuff like that. I want to hear about peoples real hunting experiances not what a book says or what some wildlife biologist did a study on.
So tell me when was the last time you hunted?
What were you hunting?
Where?
ANd what happened? Were you successfull? Was the hunt as bust?
Then someone could reply back and tell me I was in the wrong spot, it was the wrong time of day, maybe even the wrong moon time or phase, that sort of stuff.
Hope that helps out, as for me I am going out again today but I am changing stand locations because there wasnt a thing moving out towards the old corn field. SO tonight I will try hunting the tree line overlooking and open meadow about a quarter mile away from my other stand.
Happy Hunting
MK
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SnakeTracker
Join Date: 3/30/2008
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12/30/2009 7:17:25 PM
Okay then, here's my story. When I was growing up, my dad would take me into the middle of gigantic tracts of privately owned land, and we'd just look for a "good spot" to hunt. Now when I say big tract of land, I'm talking 10 to 20 miles across, owned either by a large corporation, or Uncle Sam (military reservation).
The deer had the run of the land. There was basically nothing to channel them to any one particular area, that we knew of anyway. There were no crops. There were no farms. No civilization. Just dirt roads criss-crossing the forest, providing access for the clumsy humans. The deer had only what nature provided for shelter and for food. I'm certain they had patterns, but we were never able to figure out what they were. Deer hunting consisted of finding a spot where they had crossed the road, getting out and walking into the woods a hundred yards and climbing a tree. It was frequently unsuccessful for most men back at deer camp, most all of them reeking of halitosis or toothpaste, morning coffee and sausage biscuits, and maybe even a little fuel dripped on their boots the day before.
Jump forward 10 years. It is past my time in the military and I'm in college. I am young, fit and strong and I can land nav with the best of them. I'm geographically relocated and farms dot the countryside. The deer population in my county is the highest in the State. Old growth forests around me have trees that 2 or maybe 3 men cannot reach around. The acorns are thick on the ground in Autumn and clear running streams border cow pastures and wind through the forests. If I am in the woods, the sight of an unfamiliar bird or reptile sends me to my Peterson field guides to identify and study them. I often lie on my belly in the streams and crawl slowly forward, ecstatic when I encounter a new salamander species or a crawfish. A few years before, I had read Tom Brown's book "The Tracker" and now I am track aware. Every track I find is studied closely and identified as to species and age......the best that I could at the time anyway. I have been a student of every hunting magazine published every month. I read them all. I pay rapt attention to the insights of hunters who are repeatedly successful, particularly those that kill at close range. My hours alone in the woods are countless.
One day in particular in early deer season, I find a scrape and a rub and I squat down and open my mind. For perhaps 15 minutes I just think. Eventually, I follow the natural line of drift, the path in my mind that the deer would take. I come to the next rub, the next scrape. I follow this method and I find them all. I come to a river bottom and the woods have thickened, but I'm not satisfied. I know the buck I have been following isn't large, but I'm tracking him and I want to see what he does next. I get down on my hands and knees and realize for the first time that deer trails are only perhaps a foot wide. I crawl slowly and quietly through the brush, but the wind is at my back - somewhere up ahead a deer blows at me! I've been had, but I continue on, my palms and knees getting dirtier in the moist soil. I come to the area where I'd heard the blowing come from, a slight rise in the swampy area with good fields of view, numerous escape routes, the fresh marks of deer hooves in the soil and upturned leaf litter. The direction of escape is obvious.
I sit in this spot and look at where I've come from, and note how it relates to the topography. I try to get into the mind of the deer and decide what is important to him. Security. Food. Breeding. Efficiency. I choose the path that I think he'd choose and I set out again. Eventually I emerge from the thick underbrush on an acorn strewn hillside. As I move uphill I come to the first scrape and the first rub. As time passes I creep slowly forward, thinking about each step. Within the limitations of my human physiology, I see what he sees. I hear the sounds of the forest. I smell the odors. I follow this scrape-line, finding one scrape after another. Eventually I come back to where I had started. I've made the full circuit and I count them in my head. Nine. He has 9 scrapes on this line. The loop is less than a mile.
I wait a week, let the woods relax, and set up a ladder stand along the scrape line paying attention to the direction of travel and prevailing winds. I don't have to wait long and one morning he appears at around 8:30 am, but I can't get the clean shot I want in the Oak forest, having been taught the ethics of hunting from an early age. However, I know the scrape-line, I know what time he appeared at that scrape and the direction of his travel. I wait a few hours, giving him time to fill his belly and urinate in each scrape. Knowing that he is well past his scrapes and back in the bottoms by now, I parallel the scrape line making sure that I don't cross it. I come to an open area and set up the ladder. I walk 40 yards away from it towards home, and I turn around and look back at the ladder to check its visibility. It's not obvious and I am happy.
The following morning I sleep in. I won't be in the stand before daylight today. Why? my dad asks. I know when and where this buck will be I tell him, but he kind of chuckles at me in disbelief. I walk outside and dress in my hunting clothes that I keep in a bag of leaves and dirt. I put on my rubber soled boots and sling my 30-30 Marlin on to my shoulder. I walk quietly the 30 minute walk, moving as fluidly to the ladder stand as possible, and climb into position. It's 8:30 am. He should be at the other scrape I was at the day before, so I wait patiently thinking that he'll be here at around 9am. The birds settle down and accept me.
It's 9am and my eyes are locked at the spot I know he'll appear. He's close I think to myself, but still out of my line of sight and not making a sound. [It's not fair I think. It's like they're walking around on pointed broom sticks for gosh sakes!] If I make a sound he'll evacuate the area. This is the moment that so many deer hunters blow it. I can hear my heart pounding in my ears and feel the cold morning air cycling in and out of my nostrils. There is no noise, only the product of untold generations of survival as the deer silently appears in the opening. It's 9:05 am. The sun at my back, the oak tree masks my silhouette from his view. The wind parallels us both diagonally in my favor. My cone of scent does not cross his path. In a fluid and silent motion of my own I raise the rifle at the deer only 35 yards away from me. Keeping both eyes open I find his image in the 2x scope and set the cross hairs behind his right shoulder. My heart is cracking against the inside of my chest wall. I've never done it this way and I am stunned at what I am about to accomplish. I've killed deer before, but not like this.
"Fundamentals!", I think to myself in an attempt to control my physiological response to the sight of him. Breathe..... relax, aim, exhale....stillness......squeeze. The report of the gun shatters the crisp morning air, and beyond the end of my barrel I see the deer roll over in place. I work the lever action of the 30-30 and re-chamber another round. I maintain my direction of aim and still myself for another shot. He doesn't move.
I have always been the type of person that's kind to animals. Even as a child I saw the value of life and nature. Unlike my peers, I had never killed anything for fun; not a bird, not a frog, nothing. But the accomplishment of the moment overwhelms me with joy. It is natural. I have taken game. I am successful. It wasn't chance. I didn't "luck out". I wasn't hunting over his food supply, hoping that "something" would show up. -- I'd beat him at his own game on his own terms. -- I knew men many years my senior with decades of deer hunting that had not accomplished what I had this morning. I wait 10 minutes like my father had taught me years before and climb down from the ladder.
The scrub brush on the ground directs my path diagonally away from him and I emerge on his scrape line to the left of where I'll find him. I turn right, walk 30 yards and there he lies. He's not particularly large, nor his rack. But I recognize that he is the product of his environment. A much larger deer with a larger rack simply could not exist and exploit these areas that this buck has. Something pink is lying on the ground and I pick it up and examine it. I look at the path of the bullet. It's a piece of his heart pushed through his body by the flattened nose of the 150 grain Soft Point. I'll see this many more times in years to come. He died within seconds of the shot I think to myself. I squat down and place a hand on the still warm buck, satisfied with myself, my dedication to marksmanship and detail, and how my efforts have led to a painless death for this natural work of art. The pungent odor of his tarsal glands saturates my sense of smell. It's a fitting end. It wasn't sloppy, and I have something to be proud of.
Twenty years later, you ask me for my input.
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Yoink
Join Date: 7/25/2009
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12/30/2009 9:18:48 PM
I am not a Hunter so I would like to ask the Hunters on this board there opionion on something. Where I am at some of the parents don't make their kids clean the deer that the kids shoot , they take the deers someplace or give them to workers on their farms, so the meat isn't wasted. My problem with this is it seems like the gutting and preparing of the deer that you shoot is part of the process of hunting, it seems a little to uninvolved to just do the killing. I think the cleaning is for lack of a better word a show of respect to the deer. I was curious what you folks that hunted thought about this practice.
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GhostDog
Join Date: 3/13/2008
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12/30/2009 9:43:22 PM
So what has happened in the past 20 years? Do you still Hunt? And if so was everything just as well planned out and perfect as the hunt described above?
I myself have been hunting for years and sometimes "I get the Buck and others the Buck gets me" I have quite often just fell upon dumb luck and other times I out smart the deer and get them where I want them when I want them, but they are a wily bunch and get the best of ya!
I aint gonna lie I love sleeping in the woods as much as I love hunting in the woods. I love deer camp, and solitary loner hunts as well. Not every story I have is as good as above, I have choked on so many good opportunities it makes me chuckle to think about it. I am mostly a bow hunter so all my shots are close range sometimes so close I can smell the deer (Those bucks sure smell during the rut). I have even spooked deer on purpose because i felt if I shot at such a close range they would trample me after the shot. Its a bit scary to have a deer face to face with you, well at least for me.
My last bow kill was in 06 or 07 (been hit in the head to many times its hard to remember). Anyway, I was hunting a flooded hard wood pocked of about an acre that was surrounded with open meadows on 3 sides and not far from the main wooded area I knew the deer were coming from. Not anticipating much of anything (I like the long walks and sits in the woods with a quiver full of arrows). I was watching a tree line I knew a buck was working from prior scouting, soon enough there he was walking the tree line but only 100 yards away (a little to far for a bow shot) and damn if I would have hunted the stand I set up on that tree line I would have been all set, but no I was hunting my sons stand just to prove a point to him. Well I pull out the old trusty buck grunt and give a quick call, sure enough up came his head and looking in my direction (I'll be damned them things really do work), straight across the filed he came, but once he hit the wooded pocket he headed the opposite direction away from me, I watched and waited and then gave another call, head up he went again and turned into the woods towards me! I knew the direction he was going to head so I should be all set shooting off my left side right to the deer run I already knew to be there, what I didnt know was that he was going to choose a path through the water in stead of the dry land to my left, so now he he is coming on my right side. So now I gotta stand up turn and draw before he gets to me. By time I do all these acrobatic maneuvers in slow motion he is quartering towards me about 10 yards out! I have to shoot on the fly cause he aint stoppin, I let the arrow fly and he takes off in a spray of water, I see my arrow stuck in the ground where I shot. Now I wonder ... I swear the shot was good but now I try to remember where the arrow hit and because of the adrenaline dump it is hard to recall. I watched the direction he took off and knew it was safe to go check my arrow. I climb down and see the arrow have blood on the fletchings. Bad part is there are greasy smears on the arrow, it smells and the blood is dark red … yup gut shot. No sense in tracking that one that night.
I go out the next morning and attempt to find the deer. If not for my tracking ability it would have been impossible. It crossed a moved lawn, into the wooded tree line, into the hard woods, across leaf litter, through a ditch, along the edge of a corn field, and into an open meadow. I could see where it had bedded down a few time in the meadow but could not sit still, the area where it finally died looked like it had rolled around a bit. It was an early season bow kill so the morning sun was already starting the deer to bloat (Bubbles were coming out of the arrow hole). Ahh the fun part, the gutting process, good thing is it is a time to autopsy of what the deer has been eating and how good you shot was. I clipped the liver and everything else behind it. It was not an instant death (even the Indians weren’t perfect all the time), but all the same it was a kill and I had meat for the table to feed my family.
I had a chance at his big brother the year before in the same scenario but, my tree stand creaked as adjusted my weight to take the shot, he was gone before I ever drew back the arrow. I learned from that mistake which set me up for the above story.
Not all stories are successful and not all kills clean, that is just how hunting goes and how it has gone for thousands of years. I have many clean kills, some not so clean and some that I know were wounded and probably lived for days before dieing I feel bad about those but even the Coyotes gotta eat. I do my best to be as accurate and ethical as possible and give a good track on all downed game.
For all you bow hunters “Pick a spot”
And you gun hunters “Keep your powder dry”
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merlinus (M. Krul)
Join Date: 3/13/2008
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12/30/2009 10:17:46 PM
In response to Yoink, I feel the hunt is from beginning to end. That means scouting, setting up the blind, taking the shot, tracking or blood trailing and yes GUTTING, as well as processing. My children have all been indoctrinated into the ethics of hunting from an early age. My daughter does not hunt but knows how to de-bone and process the meat. My son has yet to kill a deer but he had filed dressed his pheasants and turkeys. Most hunters DO pass on all the skills and respect for hunting and the game they hunt. If you kill it you eat it that is the way it is around our house. (Well there are some exceptions with nuisance animals but they will feed other critters in the woods).
Depending on my time management skills and or weather I may take my game to a processor to cut and package, it saves time but I always eat the meat. As for giving the meat away … not sure what to say there, if it is going to a charity or to help a needy family I don’t think that is all that bad.
I haven’t heard of too many people just shooting deer and walk away to have someone else field dress them and process them. Most Hunters field dress their own game and then take them to a processor. Some keep some meat and donate the rest to others who need it or want it (I know a few hunters who’s wives will not eat or prepare venison and excess goes to waste if not given away). It is a fine line to walk when you just participate in the kill and not the reward of eating the meat. I would personally not do that. The number of hunter’s decreases year after year and the number of new hunters getting into the woods is not keeping up with the decrease in adult hunters. If you can get a hunter out into the woods to experience the outdoors it is a good thing and as long as the downed game is being put to good use I don’t see it as being terrible (I know I didn’t kill my last Big Mac). But, you do bring up a valid point about ethics and I can only hope that the number of ethical hunters will always be in the positive.
There are many views on this subject and I hope that some of the other hunters chip in with some input. I am sure you will hear both sides of the story. I for one do not agree with it but I don’t condemn it either. At the bare minimum all hunters need give the respect back to the animal by filed dressing it themselves. What they do with the meat is … well … another issue. If someone is taking a kid out in the woods just to shoot at stuff that is wrong. If they are being taught the ethics of hunting and the circle of life and how that animal will feed others and that they are giving to those in need then ok. But, never just for the kill.
MK
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SnakeTracker
Join Date: 3/30/2008
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12/31/2009 12:15:46 AM
Ghost Dog - I hunted for years and years. One bow season alone I logged over 200 hours in the woods. Eventually, I quit for various reasons which I may get into, but it's just too tedious really. I used the "find a good spot" method on numerous occasions afterward when I just wanted to be in the woods, but at the same time demonstrated the technique I described successfully as well. Unfortunately, I really only taught it to one other person, a former hunting buddy when we were out scouting one day. A particular large deer had been seen crossing at a gate opening on a farm, so I walked him along the deer's entire circuitous route to show him where to set up his stand and told him what time the buck would be there. But....
The biggest thing that changed how many deer I would see in a season was my meticulous attempts at removing human smells from my body (without the specialized clothing or sprays of today). And if you don't do that, and pay attention to the wind, then you can't hope to be nearly as successful. Deer are very good at what they do obviously. I mostly hunted in thick river bottoms where a long shot was 50 yards. I have several other similar stories to the one above.
Deer hunting lost its luster for me ultimately, but right now I couldn't deer hunt if I wanted to. Mainly because there aren't any deer in Iraq. I do feel that I reached a thorough understanding of what it took to be successful at deer hunting. I don't doubt that I could fill all my deer tags if I set my mind to it at any given time. (Yeah, I know it sounds arrogant.)
As for the gutting and cleaning remarks above, at the very least the hunter needs to know "how" to do it, whether a deer is dropped off at a processor or not. It would be best if they could hunt it, kill it, gut it, butcher it, and turn it into sausage and tenderloin biscuits in my opinion. The world needs more "survivors" and leaders, not followers and men that need to be rescued.
There are plenty of YouTube videos and DVD's that will teach said youth how to carry out these tasks. Lately, I have really promoted all of it in the name of self reliance.
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merlinus (M. Krul)
Join Date: 3/13/2008
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12/31/2009 6:19:43 PM
We ran "The Hunter" Course with onPoint last year in the fall and the motivation for the course was to expose more potential hunters to the outdoors and the skills that are so important to self reliance. So many skills of a hunter tie into self reliance and I feel if the world was to freak out many people would be calling on the hunters of society to get them back on track. It is a mindset. There are plenty of how to videos out there and some of them very good but it is good to feel the real thing.
I like this discussion and think that other potential hunters out there would like this to keep going.
MK
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SnakeTracker
Join Date: 3/30/2008
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1/2/2010 4:34:22 AM
The only reason I push DVD's is because I've seen how effective they can be. I know a young man that learned to play the guitar using DVD's alone for example.
I have a pretty thorough library of DVD's on just about any survival topic you can imagine. Of course it's pointless to have them if you don't go out and apply what you've learned. But it's like having the instructor there whenever you want them, and you can always go back and get the information that you might have missed the first go round.
It's very easy to market something like this through Amazon.com or Paladin Press, and its dirt cheap to manufacture DVD's in large quantities with professional packaging. OPT should consider making a demo DVD for instance.
As for deer hunting, there are TONS of DVD's that demonstrate virtually every concept that I can think of relating to the subject. One that I picked up in 2008 had a really good section on tracking wounded deer.
This isn't it, but this one looks pretty good for example: Vital Information: Deer and Deer Hunting Presents - A Complete Guide to Deer Physiology, Shot Placement, Tracking and Trailing (DVD)(DVD-ROM)
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Backwoodsman
Join Date: 12/11/2008
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1/3/2010 1:24:10 PM
Mike,
Great class, The Hunter this fall, I was there with you. I agree with the whole process of hunting, start to finish as well as passing the skills on.It is kind of like anything we do, we often spend more time preparing for the event than we do doing it. Like most sports, we spend months training for the event, game trips etc. then when we are doing we have to put away gear, repair gear and in some cases change gear.
I have 2 children, 2 yo girl and 4 yo son. Both have been in my tree stand, set up at about 6 feet. My son has climbed my stick ladder, got it from Sportsmanguide and it is what you wanted, a 20 footer. http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/guide-gear-20-climbing-stick.aspx?a=546743
Got my Stand for less than $30 from Menard's a local lumber and hardware chain, not sure if you have them in MI. Came with a full body harness.
I plan to make my son a stick bow from 1.2 inch pvc and make simple arrows from dowels for his birthday in a week. Since I made my own bow and arrows I can the tools for this. This way he can learn at a young age and this will get passed on. Not only will this be a skill he will use later in life, it give us something to do together.
Anyways here in WI people are saying the herd is under sized but I have seen a lot of deer moving at night, even had a doe walk into my truck while I was slowing down, in a group of 3{ the reason you don't swerve is you will hit the other deer you didn't see} This was in the middle of gun season too. I have seen tracks in the woods and other signs. So maybe the reason people are saying the herd is down is too many people are only after big bucks to hang on the wall and not hunting to help put food on the table? I know that many people hunt just for the trophy and I think that is wrong. To me hunting is a personal quest, even spiritual, not something to hang on your wall and brag about.
So I think the deer herds would be close to the same, MI and WI being almost the same size and very similar. We don't get to cheat yet with cross bows so maybe I will try that over there this year and see how it is to hunt with one.
Ric
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Join Date: 3/7/2009
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1/9/2010 12:11:24 PM
The more time you spend actually hunting,the better your chances are for success. Sometimes you have to go and look for the game too,instead of waiting on it to come to you.
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merlinus (M. Krul)
Join Date: 3/13/2008
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1/11/2010 7:07:38 AM
Glad you liked the class and good to hear from you.
That is GREAT that you are getting your kids into the woods! To many people are letting the heritage and skills wither on the vine. No much political pressure from the animal rights groups have caused many Hunters to give it up. If we loose the hunters in society we are going to loose skills that are going to be needed in the future. The only way to ensure the skills are passed on is to teach and educate others and then have them teach and educate others.
Teaching the sacredness of the hunt is very important all the hunters out there need to understand how important it is to respect the earth and the gifts given to us before during and after the hunt. It is a gift and as well as a right and it is up to us hunters to preserve it.
I respect all forms of legal hunting because it gets people out in the woods to share in nature, some forms I am not so fond of BUT! If it is legal, ethical and respectful than have at it and “Take your kids hunting, so you don’t have to hunt for your kids”. One of the best ways to practice your survival skills is to get out and hunt and for some real challenges get out on some remote hunts where you will have no choice but to practice your survival skills (make sure you leave an itinerary and stick to it, don’t want any lost or missing hunters out there). If the SHTF just pretend you are deer camp and all will be fine, just make sure you have pre-planned no different than going out on a hunt, you have to have all your supplies prior to leaving. I keep my hunting gear and supplies ready to go all the time because you just never know.
I will be getting with Kevin soon to get “The Hunter” class scheduled for this year, and yes I will be making some logistical changes to facilitate less time on the road. I also hope to get a Scout class scheduled for early summer as well, up here in the Wilderness Wonderland of Michigan.
MK
P.S. I have the certificates done for the class I just got to mail them out.
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KAlwood
Join Date: 3/17/2008
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1/11/2010 6:37:24 PM
ok...so i took out my high speed im cool tricked out cant miss mathews, misgudged distance of a really nice doe,(in my defense, snipers dont usually have to range estimate 20m and under lol) (weak i know, but with every good hunting tail is a perfect excuse lol) and shot over her back...the bow was so quiet it didnt scare her away..but you cant exactly speed load a compound, so she walked off confused..
so now i stick to my longbow..
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merlinus (M. Krul)
Join Date: 3/13/2008
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2/6/2010 10:21:31 AM
Well then ... I hope the longbow works better for ya LOL! I am laughing with you my friend, cause I have been there with both bows, I have used both and have missed with both. It is funny when I think back on them, looking at my bow and the arrow in the ground or stuck in a tree going ... WTF ... how did I miss that shot! I can find all the deer in the world but putting meat on the table is a whole different story. I like my compound just because I just dont have the time to maintain proficiancy with a long bow. But oohhhh the tales I have over missed deer, and just about everything else! But, thats just the way it goes, they aint all perfect shots and perfect hunts, but all the same I love them all and wouldnt give up the experiances for anything. "Thats why they calll it Hunting and not Killing"
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KAlwood
Join Date: 3/17/2008
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2/6/2010 11:45:57 AM
What is your favorite arrow with the longbow? And favorite deer arrowhead?
Im currently using carbon arrows and Muzzy heads. I really like the
#5-WASP-J40 / Jak-Hammer SST
folding broadhead...
your thoughts?
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Join Date: 3/5/2010
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3/5/2010 9:27:12 PM
Hi, I too using the same one dude,,,, I really love those things,,,
temporary hangar
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